Re: Full width axles

[Tom Mandera <tsm1@domain.elided>]

On Thu, 31 Dec 1998, Darrel wrote:

> > OK, I spotted loads of Chevy front ends.. but they're all 6-lug.  What
> > parts would I need to convert the Chevy over to 5 on 5.5?  It's not as
> > simple as putting Scout II (or Jeep) rotors and hubs on I bet..
> 
> Use the Ford F150 hubs. Scout/Jeep hubs won't work.

So... Chevy front end, Ford F150 rotors and hubs, and that's all there is 
to it, to make a Chevy/GM front end 5 on 5.5 and work for my racer?  I 
bet I know a friend or five that has a pile of F150 rotors and hubs..

That seems like a very easy swap.. though it wouldn't be an IH front-end 
then.. I could live with that.  Ford rotors and hubs, and then modify the 
passenger knuckle for the cross-over drag-link, and slap that axle in.

Anyone know if the GM front end will be a close enough spring-perch match 
to just bolt it in (recall that an inch or so of offset isn't an issue 
for this project.. and I could swap to the Chevy springs if I wanted..)

> I think so. You would also have to swap to the Scout steering knuckle. The
> Ford/Chevy knuckles use a different bolt pattern for the spindle.

Scout steering knuckle vs. Pickup knuckle, or vs. Ford/Chevy knuckles?

More parts to scrounge...

> > Why are those rotors for 74/75 so darn special?
> Because IH didn't make as many trucks as the Big 3?

:-)  Yeah, that's part of it.. 

I'm just trying to figure out why they're different from the '74/75 Scout 
II Dana 44 rotors.. 

> This is one way if you can figure out a way to connect the steering column to the
> box.

Good point.  I didn't look close enough to see how offset the input to 
the steering box is on the pickup vs. the Scout boxes.

> It works ok. In my opinion you get better steering with the Scout cross-over
> draglink. 

OK, you convinced me. :-)  I have a spare drag-link.. though the threads 
are a little chewed on one end.. I'll either re-thread 'em if I can, or 
I'll just buy a Comer draglink for my driver, and move it's draglink to 
the racer..

> > Lift - I do and I don't want lift.  I want a lift of some sort up front..
> > or at least some heavy springs with a bit of travel to 'em.. to keep from
> > bottoming out the suspension *every time* I jump and land.. OTOH, center
> > of gravity is important too...
> 
> I would lean towards lower center of gravity.

Another reason for wanting a full-width front end to match the full width 
rear end.  I can afford to go a little higher to soak up the slammings.. 
er.. landings..

Maybe 3/4Ton IH front springs.. 

A friend of mine said he used two sets of Add-a-leafs on the *front* of 
his Scout II racer (the one I just dismantled).. that's how he dealt with 
the landings..

> Personally, I wouldn't do any lift. Maybe one inch HD shackles. You should get

It's going to get some type of lift.. if I use a full-width front end, 
it'll be spring over, which should have it sitting a little higher than 
stock.  I don't have a set of front springs for it, so maybe I will use 
the springs from the donor truck.. flatter factory spring-over 
suspension.  Should result in less lift, but it'll still have *some* lift.

I should look at doing the same in the rear.. my "flat" stock Scout II 
rear springs are going into the driver '77 to keep the lift low to match 
the 4" front springs.. which leaves me with a set with some arch in 'em 
for the racer.. and the rear end is spring-over already.

> another inch or so of lift just from stripping down the body to nothing. Don't need

My '72 got an inch or so of front end lift when I yanked the 
304/radiator/T15/Dana20 out of it.. but I haven't put any of that back in 
yet..

> a dash...gone, Don't need a heater....gone, etc, etc.

The dash will probably remain just because it's in OK shape.  Heck, the 
tub has two 6x9s mounted behind the doors in the rear bed walls.. so I'm 
going to put my spare AM/FM/Cass headunit in the dash just for kicks.. 
the front end will be lighter than stock.. it'll be a tilt setup, but I'm 
adding inner fenders to the tilt front end and some square tube to 
stiffen it all up (current clip is just a hood and fenders, and some of 
the grille (metal parts), and very flimsy)  I want the inners to keep mud 
off the motor and such, and I'll need to use the box tube to reinforce it 
all and keep the inners away from the outers and the whole thing from 
flopping around in the wind.

But.. no windshield, no doors, no top.  Maybe two bucket seats.. full 
cage.. no tailgate.  I'll put some angle-stock across the top of the bed 
from hardtop bolt to hardtop bolt to try and keep the quarters from 
flexing too badly.. the racer I just tore down lost both rear quarters on 
it's first race due to rust and no top.

I s'pose I'll move the battery to between the bucket seats or farther 
back to move *some* weight rearward.. maybe one of those spiffy looking 
spare tire mounts in the bed to get some rear-ward weight.  

> I think a reverse shackle would give you softer landings. Need to strengthen those
> mounts anyway.

Agreed.  And a reverse shackle would give me an excuse to do it.

I would also *probably* need to have a custom front driveshaft made.. 
deviating a bit much from stock, and with a reverse shackle the axle 
would move rearward.. no telling what that'll be like coming off a jump!  
No qualms about cutting the wheel openings to fit the tires without 
rubbing.. if John and Pansy can run 38s without a lift, I can fit 29s to 
35s. :)

> > Scout II with a 750lbs motor dangling off the front..  I'll definitely
> > splurge the $50 each for the heavy duty Nissan-style bump stops for the
> > front..
> 
> You're gonna need them. <grin>

*nodding lots*  I *KNOW* it!  They'll probably be touching the axle 
"at-rest" when I put them in.. maybe that's part of my answer for "travel 
and jump soaking" springs.. just leave the front with "no" suspension 
travel to soak up the slams and just use the Nissan bump stops to keep 
things halfway smooth.

> > pumpkin.. plus another $30 in the install kit.. I'll have to talk to my
> > R&P friend.. :-)
> 
> You don't get new bearings for $30, just shims, gasket, and marking compound. I
> probably wouldn't buy the install kit, and definitely not new bearings. It's not

Ah.  Now I don't need to talk to my R&P friend quite so soon. :-)  Maybe 
I'd buy ONE install kit for BOTH diffs.. I bet Mike has spare shims and 
marking compound, but.. I'd *feel* better providing him with at least 
*some* new supplies.. whatever Mike says.. he'll be doing the work. :)

> like your going to be flying down the highway at 60mph or putting a lot of miles on
> it. Of course, if I had some sponsorship....

60mph will probably be a pipe dream for this thing.. with 4.88 gears and 
~31" tires.  Plan is to use my stock 235/75R15s for a while.. at least 
for towing it.. then get a set of 31s for racing with.. hack the 
clearance for the 33s on my driver for mud-bog use.  I have a pair of 
bar-style styles in 32" size.. those should be fun to try. :-)

At the same time, I intend to keep enough of the stock Scout II in the 
racer to license it and make it street legal.  1) it *should* be for 
flat-towing purposes.. and I don't have my own flatbed yet.. and 2) I 
think it'd be great fun to drive it around now and then (or chase parts 
for the daily driver).. imagine some fool like me rumbling up to YOUR 
office in a stripped down, full caged, no top/nodoors, glasspack'd Scout 
II that shows some obvious signs of racing wear and tear.. 

Heck, with 4.88s, it might be fun to see who's faster from 0-25.. me, or 
the Mustang that pulled up alongside me... (yeah, right..)

> You are going to run an automatic tranny I hope!!

Yup.  There's a 304 and wide T19 in Bozeman that I own and need to pull 
and bring home.  There's a 727 lying in the garage that I need to tear 
down this month and rebuild.  It wasn't hitting 3rd, and reverse requied 
you to nail the throttle to get it to "kick in".. or so the previous 
owner told me.  I'm waiting to see those pics Dan Nees was talking 
about.. let him do the boo-boos before I do. :-)

304/727/Dana 20, with 4.88:1 Dana 44s on either end, and a typical tire 
size of 31x10.50.  Cheap tires, and I don't believe ground clearance is a 
big deal in the racing we have here.  I'll use my Cooper 33x12.50 STTs 
for mud.. until I get a new set of mudders for the purpose.. or I have 
friends with 35" mud tires they'll loan me.. including a set of Dick 
Cepek paddles... 

Hopefully by next week the new racer chassis will be in front of the 
garage and I'll be bolting in the steering column, wheel, pedals, 
rear-end, and everything else that I have lying in the garage for it...

Thanks, Darrel.

-Tom