Re: Full width axles

[Darrel <darrelK@domain.elided>]

Tom Mandera wrote:

> On Wed, 30 Dec 1998, Darrel wrote:
>
> > > However, no calipers, no rotors, no hubs.  Recall that '74 had disc
> > > brakes and, by all accounts, parts are $$$$.
> >
> > Yes, they are spendy. I would look for a GM axle.
>
> OK, I spotted loads of Chevy front ends.. but they're all 6-lug.  What
> parts would I need to convert the Chevy over to 5 on 5.5?  It's not as
> simple as putting Scout II (or Jeep) rotors and hubs on I bet..

Use the Ford F150 hubs. Scout/Jeep hubs won't work.

> If the stub shaft is the problem, I could swap the stubs off my Dana 30.
> The Dana 30 and '44 Scout IIs used the same spline count and size.. I
> know, my Dana 44 sports a Warn lock-out stolen from my Dana 30.

If the u-joints match.

> Would this then let me use the cheaper Scout II or CJ rotors and hubs,
> and Scout II/Ford calipers then?

I think so. You would also have to swap to the Scout steering knuckle. The
Ford/Chevy knuckles use a different bolt pattern for the spindle.

> Why are those rotors for 74/75 so darn special?

Because IH didn't make as many trucks as the Big 3?

> > This steering setup is very common and was used by Dodge, GM, and IH on 1/2
> > and 3/4 tons.
>
> Yep.
>
> Could the IH/GM/Dodge/whatever steering box be fitted to the Scout II and
> use the "stock" setup for these axles?  Looking, the Scout II pump is
> mounted over + inside (inside the area enclosed by) the frame, with the
> pitman drop on the inside of the frame, while on the pickups I was looking
> at, the box is on the outside of the frame, with the "drop" outside was well.

This is one way if you can figure out a way to connect the steering column to the
box.

> How well does this setup (drag link straight to driver's knuckle) work
> when you lift a rig?

It works ok. In my opinion you get better steering with the Scout cross-over
draglink. I had a Chevy pickup with a 4inch lift for years, so I should know. You
can buy a spacer block with longer studs to raise the "horseshoe" steering arm, or
a raised "horseshoe" steering arm. Both kits sell for around $50. I like the spacer
block better.

> >  I think you mean modify the passenger side *steering knuckle*?  Been there,
>
> You're right, knuckle.
>
> > done that.  This is how I converted to a straight drag-link with my
> > springover. I used 1974 3/4 ton IH steering knuckles...They're flat on top.
>
> That's the knuckle it has. :)  On the driver's side in particular I noted
> it having the "horseshoe" steering arm mounted via some bolts to the top
> of the knuckle.  I didn't look closely at the passenger side.
>
> > between the knuckle and the steering arm. This spacer is sold at all the 4x4
>
> Too bad we don't have "4x4 shops" around here.. closest thing is my
> garage. :-)

Of course, you can order them.

> > I have a complete write-up on my home page, but don't have it on the web yet.
> > :-(
>
> Geeze, Darrel, a lot of good *that* does me! :-)
>
> > This would be for your racer? If so just bolt that axle right in. The spring
> > perches are only spaced about one inch wider then a Scout. The axle shock
> > mounts will work with the Scout frame mounts. Pinion angle shouldn't be a
> > concern since you don't want much lift on a racer.
>
> Lift - I do and I don't want lift.  I want a lift of some sort up front..
> or at least some heavy springs with a bit of travel to 'em.. to keep from
> bottoming out the suspension *every time* I jump and land.. OTOH, center
> of gravity is important too...

I would lean towards lower center of gravity.

> I was thinking a Scout II front w/ 4" lift springs.. stiff ones.. and a
> spring-over rear becuase the rear isn't as important and a spring-over
> would be cheap.  (plus, I get to practice doing a spring over on the rear
> of the racer before I tackle my daily driver).  With a full width axle,
> it's already spring over.. I have clearance for tires (I figured I'd
> Sawzall what clearance I need anyhow), but I don't *think* I gain much in
> *travel* and landing absorption.

Personally, I wouldn't do any lift. Maybe one inch HD shackles. You should get
another inch or so of lift just from stripping down the body to nothing. Don't need
a dash...gone, Don't need a heater....gone, etc, etc.

> I wonder if I'd be better off using stock Scout II springs w/ the full
> width axle.. or.. I was looking at the wider pickup & T'all springs, and
> thinking... it wouldn't be much to cut the front shackle mounts off the
> Scout, weld some box tube on and make a reverse shackle setup.. which
> would make it *easy* to adjust for the width of the wider T'all/Pickup
> springs, and then use the bushing-through-frame and rear shackle..

I think a reverse shackle would give you softer landings. Need to strengthen those
mounts anyway.

> I don't know how much longer the *front* springs are.. but I recall the
> *rear* 3/4T Travelall springs are 4" longer than the front Scout II
> springs.. it was suggested I use the T'all springs for the front
> spring-over & reverse shackle on the frame-off.. just move the spring
> mount point forward a little bit, and/or move the center pin.
>
> Anyone care to suggest a good spring choice?  "ride comfort" is *not* so
> important.. the Scout needs to be able to follow the terrain and keep the
> tires on the turf when I'm on the ground and running.. but it also needs
> to have enough room between the axle and the bump stops, and a high
> enough spring rate, to handle the nose-first landings when you jump a
> Scout II with a 750lbs motor dangling off the front..  I'll definitely
> splurge the $50 each for the heavy duty Nissan-style bump stops for the
> front..

You're gonna need them. <grin>

> > > Ideally, I want 4.88:1 gears.. but if I can find a 3.73 front end to
> >
> > I just happen to have a good Dana 44 ring and pinion in 4.88.  How does $50
> > sound?
>
> Sounds like... "SOLD" to me.. :-)  I'd probably still want the $30
> bearing and install kit though, right?  Then another $130 for the other
> pumpkin.. plus another $30 in the install kit.. I'll have to talk to my
> R&P friend.. :-)

You don't get new bearings for $30, just shims, gasket, and marking compound. I
probably wouldn't buy the install kit, and definitely not new bearings. It's not
like your going to be flying down the highway at 60mph or putting a lot of miles on
it. Of course, if I had some sponsorship....

> > How wide is that T'all rear end?  My '74 IH 3/4 ton axles are 67.5 inches.
>
> Someone said 4" wider than a Scout II.  I roughly confirmed this.

That makes the T'all axle about 63 inches.

> I measured from the side of the pumpkin to the side of the spring perch
> on my Scout II rear end and the T'all.. 1" more on either side on the
> T'all.  I think it was.. maybe it was 2" more on either side from the
> outside edge of the spring perch to the wheel hub/drum.
>
> My opinion at the time I measured (last week) was that.. I'd probably
> just bolt the Scout II rear springs to the perches as-is, and let the
> springs kinda "arch" outwards a little bit.. might even *help* around
> corners.. who knows!  Then I don't have to question the quality of my
> welds on the axle tube when I would put the spring perches back on in the
> appropriate location..

I would do the same.

You are going to run an automatic tranny I hope!!

Darrel Kline
Colorado Springs