Re: Lift kits?

[tsm1@domain.elided (Tom Mandera)]

><<But, I'll first state - Nope, can't do it.  You can't fit 33s on a Scout II
>with *just* a 4" lift.>>
>
>I just hate to disagree with someone, but I think you may not be correct on

Disagreement is fine! :)  Digest needs a good discussion anyhow... and I've
been far from right before!

>this one. I believe you can fit 33's on a Scout II with 4" of lift. My 74
>Scout II has a 3" body lift, Add-A-Leafs and rear extended shackles, and
>33x12.5x15 tires on it, and they never rub, going through the Rubicon and I
>scored an 890 at the RTI test at the NWBRU.

I ramped 810 at NWBRU, with the rear tires jammed into the wheel well so
tightly I had to use the starter to *back* down, since the lug was firmly
jammed into the wheel well, that I couldn't just let the clutch out to roll.

The difference is how the lift is achieved.  Your body lift provides more
clearance for tires.  Period.  IMO, 3" body lift = more tire clearance than
4" spring lift.... *twisted*.

Remember that, with a 4" suspension lift, you're not really changing how far
*into* the fender the tire *can* go.  You're changing how much droop you
have, and where your "normal" ride height is.

With 31s on my Scout, I could stuff the tires every bit as far into the
wheel wells with the 4" lift as I could with the stock suspension.  I just
didn't sit as high "at rest", nor did the tires droop as far w/ the stock
suspension.

The 4" suspension lift gave me a better break-over angle though.

>Is it possible that the 4" suspension lifts being sold are not giving a true
>4" of lift ? Are axles being relocated forward or rearward with the lifts as

They're not giving 4" of true lift.  Not if you measure from a stock height
truck, axle tube to frame, and a lifted truck.  My 4" Skyjacker netted me 4"
up front, and 2" in the rear.  I have the measurements to back it up.  With
the 2" extended shackles, I'm closer to 4" front and 3.5" rear... but those
were with the 196.. I haven't measured lately with the 304 up front.

>to affect fitting the tires ? I think what we really need to find out is, what

I think the Skyjacker springs moved the rear axle forward a little bit...
NWBRU still thought I had a 100" wheelbase, so it must not have been much,
but however much it *was* moved, I'm *thankful for*.

At rest, I'm close to rubbing the front of the rear tires on the front of
the rear wheel well.  At droop, the tire actually tucks *under* the front
edge of the rear wheel well, but never rubs.

When I compress, the rear tire rolls rearward, and ends up hitting the
*rear* edge of the rear wheel well.  At the same time, it's barely *not*
touching on the more forward section of the wheel well.

My feeling is, the stock rear wheel well flat out will nto support 33"
tires.  It's too "narrow" front to back to stuff 33s inside there.  The
diameter of the wheel well (not just the fender, but the inner well) isn't
big enough.

You (and John Fleck, and others) have effectively moved this too-small
opening upwards (via body lift) so that the tire isn't going all the way
into the wheel well, but instead just a section of the tire, and not the
full cross-width, is going into the wheel well.  That's why I claim a 3"
body lift provides more tire clearance than a 4" suspension lift.

Also note that you have a "static" 3" lift... your wheel wells and fenders
are *always* 3" higher than stock.  Mine are only "four inches" higher *at
rest*... with my suspension lift, I can still twist the axle every bit as
much (and rest on the bump stops) as before.  (Well, *I* can't, since my
tires hit, but if I put my 29s back on, or my 31s, I could twist the rear
axle into the bump stops still, which makes the tire no farther from the
fender than when I'd twist up with the stock suspension)

>height the body needs to be off the ground, for 33's to fit. I think I

Again, it's not a *static*, at-rest, body from the ground issue.  Not if
we're talking 4x4s.  Now, a pavement pounder?  not a problem.  But if you
want to twist the truck up, "at rest" ground to body clearance isn't the
issue.  And I still say a 3" body lift gives the same or better clearance
for tires than a 4" suspension lift.  

It's just a different method of achieving tire clearance.

>remember seeing on the Binder Bulletin web site, the specs for what is needed
>in a lift to clear certain sizes of tires, and that suspension lifts require
>1" more than body lifts. This would make me think that a 4" suspension lift
>really only gives 3" of lift.

Partly correct.  Again, they're different styles of lift, yielding different
levels of clearance at different points of articulation.

A 3" body lift is 3" of clearance above the tires ALL THE TIME, over stock.

A 4" suspension lift (yielding only 3" typically) gives you 3" of clearance
above the tires *AT REST*.

I noticed at RMIHR and Nationals that Bill Thebert's sprung-over '71 with
33s rubs the tires on the rear wheel well just a bit when he's really
crossed up.  Bill ramps so exceptionally well because he can stuff the tires
into the wheel well every bit as much as a stock truck (well, just a hair
less due to the 33s rubbing slightly, and his bump stop arrangement), but he
has MUCH more droop on the opposite side.

>So my thought is that if we know what height is needed to clear a certain size
>tire, and you install for example a 4" suspension lift and you measure the
>body height, and it's 1/2 short, you know that a 1" body lift will do the
>trick. Make sense ?

Makes sense, Steve.

I'm going to try replacing my body mount bushings, and adding a 1" spacer
into the mix, to see if I can finish clearing my 33s without tearing them apart.

I'll then need new wheels with different offset, since once I fix the tire
from hitting the rear of the wheel well, the next rub is when I twist the
sidewall into the vertical inside face of the wheel well.  I'll need to move
the wheels a little farther out, to allow a little more twist, before
hitting there.

Running 33x12.50s on 15x8 rims also helps to give me more sidewall bulge,
making this rub a little sooner.

But I don't think it has anything to do with the front/back rubbing on the
rear of the wheel well.  33s are 33s.  Now, if you got a pair of 33s that
didn't measure 33" (or however close to 33" mine actually measure), you
won't rub... but are they really 33s then? :-)

Like I said in my first post, I don't think 33s will fit with *just* a 4"
suspension lift.  At the very *least* it'll require some trimming, but from
all I've heard from others, and confirmed with my own experience and
measurements thus far, you'll need more than a 4" lift and trimming to
really clear 33s.  I'd like to see someone with 33s on a Triangle lifted
Scout, and see how well they clear the rear lip of the rear wheel well.. but
the simple fact still remains the stock wheel well isn't wide enough, front
to back, for 33s.

For my next Scout, I think I'm going to cut the stock wheel wells/fenders
off, and then extend the wheel well rear ward, to make room for larger tires
to actually *stuff* into the wheel well.

My $0.02

-Tom Mandera, Helena MT
http://www.tmcom.com/~tsm1/scout
'72 and '77 Scout IIs