Re: 14" wheels on early 105 suspensions

[Simon Favre <simon@domain.elided>]

Far be it for me to argue with a parts book in the hands of John Hertzman.
I'll concede the early Dunlop cars had the same 2-piece knuckle as the 
early Ate cars. I know there was a knuckle change in between the 2-piece
and the later 1-piece as found on US spec 2000 Spiders. My car is wearing
them now.

Most of the "apocryphal" data I gave was from direct experience with a US
spec '67 GT Veloce. I'll grant the TI's may be different. A lot can be
determined from 2 simple observations. First, is the knuckle 2-piece or
1-piece? Second, is the caliper bolt spacing the small one or the large
one? As corroboration of my rantings, there was a blurb on the Veloce
web site about brake upgrades for 105/115 series Alfas. See:

  http://hem.passagen.se/veloce/MECH2.HTM#booster

Skip the part about the boosters, and read the part about the caliper
upgrades. I did the latter upgrade on my '67 GTV. Long after trying the
14" alloys on my car, I decided to go with the Brembo caliper upgrade
because I thought it would just bolt right on. Surprise! The new rotor
and hub assemblies wouldn't fit the older 2-piece knuckle and hub assy.
I had to go out and get some late '67 knuckles that were 1-piece in order
for the caliper upgrade to work. The later US GTV's and Spiders from 69 on
used a bigger caliper for which the BMW caliper mentioned on the web site
is applicable. In researching this issue further, I found that even after
the larger calipers came out on the US spec 1750's and 2000's, the Juniors
were still using the smaller caliper. The brake upgrade that uses the GTV6
Brembo caliper was specifically intended for Duettos and Junior Z's. So,
I concluded that the mid-67 to 68 US spec Spider/GTV or any Junior knuckle
was the only way to get the Brembo caliper on my car. With the ventilated
discs and the Brembo calipers, the stopping power of my car is astounding.

So, the remaining question that might be answered from the parts books is
whether or not the 2000 cars used a different caliper than the non-2000
cars made after 68. If the answer is yes, then the non-2000 cars could all
be considered "Juniors" as far as that part is concerned. Again, the TI's
were probably different. There IS a reason Alfa called the top of the line
a Veloce. 

Just to confuse the issue more (I'm good at that), I have heard from some
vintage racers that the 2000 knuckles and the Junior knuckles have the
upper ball joint raised up higher than the early cars did. This improves
the handling by making the car develop more negative camber as the body
rolls in a turn. Remember the knuckle risers? (Oh no! not THAT again!) ;=(
So, from that I concluded that the Juniors had the best knuckle I could
bolt on without resorting to major sorcery. I couldn't get any locally,
but the ones I got were supposed to be from a late '67 US spec car. Since
there were no '68 US spec Alfas, That's the best I could find. They were
1-piece with integral caliper bracket, and they had the smaller caliper
bolt spacing. Am I supposed to go crawl under the car to get the part #?

Happy Holidays,

Simon

JHertzman@domain.elided wrote:
> 
> In AD7-1222 Simon Favre wrote about steering knuckle design changes ("about 4
> different types of hub/knuckle/caliper bracket unit") and their conflict with
> some wheels. Some was new to me, all was interesting, but I will demur on a
> couple of points. His last paragraph says "Bottom line, if the suspension
> parts on your car were designed for a 15" wheel, you may not be able to fit
> any 14" wheel. Check it before you buy! If the car was upgraded at some point
> to use the 115 series (2 liter) front suspension, then you should be able to
> fit either 14" or 15" at will. IMO, there's no point putting new 14" wheels
> on anything, because the tire choices in that size are vanishing."
> 
> In late 1968 I put 14" Alfa wheels on my 1967 Giulia Super. According to my
> parts book the Super, TI Super, and Duetto all used the 105.14.21.010/011.00
> steering knuckles which were the original ones on the TI, which was the first
> 105, introduced in June 1962 with drum brakes. Those books all show just one
> type of steering knuckle and all show just one type of caliper bracket,
> 105.14.22.103/104.00. The bolt pattern of the four large bolts which Simon
> mentioned was of course inherited from the drum brake backing plates.
> 
> A second steering knuckle with integral caliper bracket,
> 105.41.21.010/011.00, is the only one shown in any of my 1750
> Berlina/Spider/GT Veloce parts books and in my 2000 Berlina parts books.
> 
> Simon mentions another one before '67 for Dunlop calipers (which doesn't show
> up in my parts books), and that "Juniors came with a different knuckle that
> used the smaller caliper bolt spacing", and that in mid '67, they switched to
> a 1-piece knuckle and caliper bracket which was used through '68, but which
> was evidently distinct from the later (2000) unit. I wonder if at least these
> last two, the Junior and the mid-67 through '68, might not be the same, if
> they are indeed different from the other two. The 1968 production figures
> seem to me to support this question; by Fusi's numbers the 1968 production
> consisted of 42,014 1750s (thus covered in the 1750 parts books) and 47,202
> 1300s, and just 7,686 1600s of all types. If the 1750s had the 1750 knuckles,
> and the 1300s had the Junior knuckles, there would seem to be little reason
> for not using one or the other on the handful of 1600s.
> 
> One other quibble (an old one, at that,) is Simon's equating the 115 series
> with the two liter. If Fusi is correct, most of the two-liters (all except
> the USA's 7%) were 105s, and the 115s started with the 1970 1300 Super,
> extending to the 1600s in 1972. If you go by Fusi's numbers, by the end of
> 1972 there were over 82,000 115s which were not 2000s, over 70,000 2000s
> which were not 115s, and just over 5000 2000s which were 115s.
> 
> On the 14" wheel not fitting suspension parts designed for 15" wheels, the
> only explanation I can think of for 14" wheels fitting my '67 Super and not
> fitting his '67 GTV would be a difference between my steel wheels and his
> alloys. His "Check it before you buy!" is certainly fair enough advice.
> 
> John H.
> Raleigh, N.C.

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End of alfa-digest V7 #1223
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