Re: Auto Transmission Service

["Nate Smith" <nate@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

The automatic transmission service question is difficult and there is no
consensus among independent BMW repair shops on the correct course of
action.  None of us in the aftermarket has the engineering resources to
reach a conclusive statement of facts regarding the issue of "lifetime"
fluids and need for transmission servicing, and questions about the efficacy
of fluids other than those specified by the manufacturer.

Modern automatic transmissons are very complex, and there are several types
of friction materials in use by the various manufacturers.  This is
especially true of the lockup clutch in the torque converter.  When the
manufacturer specifies a fluid, and the use of another fluid may compromise
the integrity of the transmission, and when replacing that transmission may
run $5K, many independent shop owners are not interested in experimenting
with customer's cars.

All that said, we have successfully used several different fluids in the ZF
5HP30
transmissions, as well as the later "lifetime fluid" transmissions.  We have
had good success with Red Line D4 as well as a product from Southwestern
Petroleum.  We also use the factory fluids for those customers who prefer
it.

The remaining question about whether it is necessary or prudent to service a
transmission filled with "lifetime" fluid also does not seem to have an easy
answer.  By 75 or 80,000 miles, the fluid is dark, thick, and syrupy.  On
visual inspection, the stuff looks awful.  The question, though, is whether
it is reasonable to spend the money on a transmission service if it may not
lengthen the life of the transmission.  There is currently no consensus
among BMW specialty shops on this one either.  We are currently recommending
transmission service at 60,000 miles, and we seem to be getting good results
from this schedule.  We have two 5HP30's at over 200,000 miles now, and both
seem fine.

In response to the question of the delay in engagement of reverse, there is
a well known problem inside the valve body of the early 5HP30's.  If the
problem is caught early enough, replacement of the reverse checkball is
generally enough to cure the problem.  There are, however, a number of
changes and improvements in the valve body and some o-rings, etc., to the
transmissions made before '96.  The valve body can be rebuilt with a ZF kit
that includes updated parts, or there is a complete ZF-rebuilt valve body
available.  Definitely do not put off these repairs, or the delayed reverse
engagement will deteriorate into no gear engagement with a damaged clutch
drum.

Nate Smith
Optimal Auto Care - BMW
2335 Soquel Drive
Santa Cruz, CA  95065
831-476-1332
831-476-1567 fax
nate@domain.elided
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Vincent Poy" <vince@domain.elided>
To: <alex.fadeev@domain.elided>
Cc: <henrib@domain.elided>; <bmw-digest@domain.elided>; <owner-bmw@domain.elided>
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 1:54 AM
Subject: Re: 1994 540i Auto Transmission Service and Fluid


> On Mon, 19 Aug 2002 alex.fadeev@domain.elided wrote:
>
> >
> > Henri Baccouche <henrib@domain.elided> wrote:
> > > > First : Only use the special OEM ATF.......if you must.
> > >
> > > The OEM oil is unique.......for this trans.
> >
> > Henri,
> > Could you please elaborate.
>
> This is where I am confused as well.
>
> > OEM oil is obviously unique in the sense that it is some other
> > manufacturer's oil re-branded by BMW.
>
> OEM is just a way for BMW to remarket someone else's oil with
> their name on it and then markup the price.  Just like Radio Shack sells
> lots of stuff that are made by others but cost more than if you bought the
> actual item with the original companies name on it.
>
> > BMW is not in the oil business, just like it is not in the transmission
> > business (manual or automatic). Your and Vincent friend's transmissions
are
> > built by either ZF or GM.
>
> Isn't ZF and GM the same since I remember on this list a few years
> ago, someone said the ZF transmission is just a better transmission made
> by GM sold to BMW?
>
> > I would advise to start by checking which transmission is installed in
your
> > car and contacting the manufacturer for the advise on which ATF to use.
> > BMW dealer service departments are notoriously clueless and sales
oriented.
> > Unless you personally spoke to a wrench with 10+ years of experience and
> > NOT a service "advisor", I would not put any faith in the advise your
> > received.
>
> Yep, a company will always recommend their own products over
> anything else.  Just like you buy a Timex watch, they say to replace it
> with a Timex battery but any battery from Renata, Energizer, Duracell,
> Maxell, Varta, Panasonic will all work as good if not better than the
> original battery.
>
> > > It is not Redline's version of Dextron 3 synthetic .......
> >
> > Most likely not.
> > BMW has never re-branded any RedLine products. But they had been known
to
> > resell Shell and now Castrol (the current Williams BMW sponsor)
products.
>
> Interesting.  I thought BMW rebranded some of the LubriMolly or
> whatever that brand name is.
>
> > I've seen reputable local independents use both RedLine D4 ATF and Mobil
1
> > ATF oils in manual and automatic transmissions. One reason is cost -
either
> > one is about $10/quart. The other is access. BMW makes it very difficult
to
> > obtain their juice outside of the dealer network.
>
> I guess the first reason is more important since who wants to pay
> 10x as much per quart.  How many quarts does a transmission take anyways?
>
> > I doubt the independents would be using either product if it were to
cause
> > accelerated transmission failure.
>
> Yep, the funny thing is this was a Independent BMW servicer I
> called and they said to use only BMW OEM fluids.  Also, speaking about the
> transmission, my friend said when he puts the transmission in reverse, it
> has a delay of 2 seconds before the car would actually reverse with the
> foot on the gas pedal, anyone knows what the remedy for this is?
>
> > > >         Is there any thing special about it since it seems to cost
> > > > a fortune and all the BMW Performance catalogs including Bavarian
> > > > Autosport seems to sell the Redline stuff, is there anything wrong
> > > > with it.  Also, my friend asked if Slick50 ATF is a bad idea.
> > >
> > > OEM fluid only...!!!!
> >
> > Why?
> > Can you tell me the difference between Redline, Mobil-1 or re-branded
OEM
> > oil?
> >
> > I'm yet to meet anyone who has anything good to say about Slick50 or
> > similar magic oils, so do stay away from those.
>
> Me too, I remember even on this list, people had bad things to say
> about Slick50 except I forgot if it was Engine fluid or if it's the ATF
> their talking about.
>
> > > > Second : I have been monitoring this issue, since the "lifetime
fluid"
> > > > craze began , and I think it's not worth it. The manufacturer
doesn't
> > > > recommend this service as a regular thing.
> >
> > Yep,
> > BMW NA stopped recommending transmission service in '98, exactly the
year
> > they started including 'free' 3 year/36K mile service with new cars.
> > Prior to '98, transmission fluid flush was a part of Inspection II.
> > Draw your own conclusions.
>
> Interesting... So models prior to '98 actually required
> transmission service?
>
>
> Cheers,
> Vince - vince@domain.elided - Vice President             ________   __
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