Re: 4R Zagato - long, sorry

[Andy Kress <aokress@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

i know i shouldn't - but i can't help myself.
First of all, i find it amazing that no one on this list has ever owned one 
or worked on one.  I was hoping that Bob Little was going to enlighten us - 
but perhaps it was before his time.
I did what research i could w/ my limited resources - and still know very 
little about these cars.  what info is published is scant and either sloppy 
or carefully vague.
The one thing everyone seems to agree upon is the car's wheelbase is 2.6 
meters which does not match any vehicle Alfa made in the 
period.  Everything (almost) contemporary is shorter.  The 
only  contemporary with a longer one was the 2600 Berlina!  BTW - the 
original 1750 Gran Sport & Super Sport have a wheel base of  2.745, and the 
Gran Turismo Compressore is 3.16M.
It is also interesting that for a car conceived in 1965 & built from 1966 
to 1968 they used components from a discontinued model line - instead of 
the current product line.
As JH points out fairly typical inconsistencies throughout. To make matters 
worse, no one spells out too clearly just how these were put 
together.  However, no one specifically mentions tube frames (which they do 
on cars which are known to have tube frames) - just what looks like unibody 
construction - which is a puzzler because of the wheelbase issue.  At no 
time does any of these guys mention different wheelbases.
The other thing that is interesting/amusing is the spin or bias the various 
authors give on who drove the project.  Probably like most projects - 
everyone who had a say was being worked all ways at all times until finally 
an agreement pops out.   Then everyone claims the credit.

Please realize my Italian isn't what it should be for this so i may have 
made some errors and will readily defer to better  readers.
"Zagato" by Michele Marchiano - only mentions it briefly as one of a few 
last gasps for Zagato as a car manufacturer before they had to scratch for 
alternate means of making a living - such as making armored cars.  He does 
specifically say that the editor of Quattroroute approached Zagato in 1965 
with the idea, and they managed to get Alfa's approval.  He says they used 
the "Giulia spyder chassis".  Not too clear - 101 or 105 Giulia, and just 
exactly what is a chassis - especially on a unibody car.
Anyway, Fusi who does list it in his "All cars from 1910" says "Zagato 
built the the replicas on the basis of standard production components from 
the Giulia 1600".   or as they say in the old country.."derivando la 
vettura dai gruppi di produzione Alfa Romeo della Giulia 1600."
Then, to make matters more confusing - in the last English translation 
paragraph says "had excellent performance as a result of using the Giulia 
T.I. components,".   However in the Italian says.."pur fornendo ottime 
prestazione dovute alle doti del motore ed ai pregi dei vari gruppi della 
Giulia T.I...."  which i take to mean specifically that they used the 
Giulia T.I. 1600 cc engine.

Then on the specs page he lists the the chassis type "integrale con la 
scocca metallica" ??? - which i take to mean unibody.
here, he also lists the same block and the same outputs as the TI, but he 
lists 2 carbs w double side drafts - the T.I . is listed as a single, dual 
throat downdraft.
Lists the 4R as having a 37 mm intake valve and a 31 mm exhaust.  TI w. a 
35 mm inlet and 31 exhaust.
He also lists it w/ rack and pinion steering - otherwise the first mention 
made in this period was the Scarabeo and subsequently the Tipo 33.
He also lists the 4R as having drum brakes - 3 shoes in front and 2 in back.

In D'Amico & Tabucchi - "Alfa Romeo PRODUCTION Cars"  states that 
Quattroruote "managed to convince Alfa Romeo to produce a car that revived 
.....on the suitably modified chassis of the Giulia Spider".  "The 
operation was entrusted to Zagato..."  "The engine was the same as the unit 
fitted to the Giulia Spider and the Giulia Sprint"  "Slight styling 
modifications were introduced during the production run."  no further 
elaboration.  In a photo caption -  mention that the car's styling 
similarity to the original was "compromised from the front by the 
independent suspension and disc brakes."
However in the specs section, lists drum brakes at all 4 wheels (no 
comments on # shoes).
They list the same engine & carb scheme - list a "monocarburatore" without 
any elaboration.
not rack and pinion steering.
As to chassis type give: lamiera di acciao, complimentare alla scocca 
metallica" which i have no clue - but guess is a combo description of the 
body work and chassis ????  or????
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