Re: mid engine Alfetta (?) project

["John Hertzman" <johnhertzman@domain.elided>]

Ron Ewing writes "I'm sure others will chime in on this, but I'm not aware of
ANY mid engine setup that has ever used the DeDion IRS."

First, it isn't IRS - but you knew that.

The Alfa Romeo Tipo 512 single-seat rear engined prototype GP car (three
built, one destroyed in a truck collision while testing on an open highway,
one surviving in the Milan technical museum, a third (I think) surviving at
Arese, had a transaxle, inboard brakes, AND De Dion behind its 335 CV 1.5
liter horizontally opposed mid engine. Also, the Alfa Romeo Tipo 163
Berlinetta da Corsa was a two-seater intended for sport category racing, with
its transaxle, inboard brakes, AND De Dion behind its three-liter near-V-16
(135 degree V, borrowed from the Tipo 162 GP which was front-engined but had a
similar De Dion/transaxle layout).

All three cars were the brainchildren of Ricart, all had their development
aborted by the war, none were continued after Ricart hastily (but no doubt
prudently) bailed out of Italy for Spain one step ahead of the Partisans. In
Spain he designed and built in small numbers the Pegaso which may reasonably
be considered an Alfa supercar in all but name, and certainly an Italian
supercar in all but legal nationality. All four - the 152, 162, 163, and
Pegaso- had the locating radius rods of the De Dion converging to a ball joint
at the rear of the chassis, an option which might simplify Beatle's project.

I won't swear to it, German cars generally being very peripheral to my
interests, but I believe the late iterations of the Auto-Union were another
mid engine setup that used the De Dion axle. The early ones had swing axles,
as Alfa did, but I believe both Mercedes and Auto-Union used De Dions on their
late prewar GP cars.

Ron also suggested "consider an east/west setup with a 164 trans, if you want
to go all-Alfa." I'm not sure how fragile the Alfasud/33 gearbox is, but the
gross physical layout, with the geartrain behind the final drive, would offer
a very compact mid-engine rear-drive all-Alfa possibility. The long tailpiece
on the 'Sud box would offer a logical mount for an original Ricart De Dion
layout. Since the 512 was a 1.5 liter boxer-engined mid-engine monoposto an
entire 'Sud/33 engine/gearbox unit might be worth considering as the basis for
a mini-512 replicar. It sure would eliminate a lot of fretting over adapters.
Substantially oversquare (87 mm x 72 mm), with four cams and sixteen valves on
the late versions, it sounds like it should be tweakable. I've never paid any
attention to the Alfasud/33/145 cars (not sold here, and FWD? Fuggedit) but
for the project Beatle outlined it might be worth considering.

Enjoy the dreams, (hard to beat for cost/pleasure ratio)

John H.
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