Re: alfa-digest V8 #1000 Double clutching and downshifting

["George Schweikle" <schweikg@domain.elided>]

Digesti,

Correct me if I'm wrong but, my understanding is that heel and toe braking,
double clutching, and sequential downshifting comes from the days of road
racing cars with drum brakes. The front to rear brake balance required
engine retardation (from downshifting) at the rear wheels to provide
balanced braking during long term competition. A missed downshift could
result in overshooting a corner due to reduced engine braking effect.
Naturally, this technique trickled down to street driving, where it was not
really needed, but a well executed heel and toe downshift was an example of
a good driver, including a "blip" of the throttle between the two clutch
pedal depressions of the downshift. Since modern disc brakes can change the
speed of a car at a greater rate than acceleration from the engine, this
neat but superfluous technique isn't really needed. Just stomp on the middle
pedal to slow down and select the proper gear for corner exit when needed.

Now that's the line taught at places like Bill Scott's racing school at
Summit Point. My experience at this school many years ago was that
acceptance of the technique varied depended on the instructor; one said I
was wasting my time, another said to do what I was comfortable with
(sequential downshifting). I can do it, and consider the technique a sign of
a good driver (your opinion may vary). As an aid to correct the different
position of brake and gas pedal, I have added a spacer to the brake pedal to
assure the same brake and gas pedal spacing, and ease of foot placement.
Finally, how many remember that early race cars had the gas pedal between
the brake and clutch to facilitate the natural splay of human feet while
pressing brake and gas pedal?.

You pays your money, and takes your choice but, traditional sequential
double clutch downshifting sounds neat (with all due respect to 'Ol Fred,
who can make whatever he drives go damn fast) and I seem to remember the
Porsche factory was said to recommend the technique to their race car
drivers.

George Schweikle
Lexington, KY

(snip)

> Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 15:58:30 -0400
> From: "Watry, Andrew (LNG-MBC)" <Andrew.Watry@domain.elided>
> Subject: no-clutch shifting an Alfa
>
> Once in 1978 when my "friend" exploded the clutch plate on my old Super
> power-shifting it, I drove it home from Lakeside, CA to Carlsbad, CA, a
> total of more than 50 miles, with no clutch whatsoever.  Once I got
rolling,
> it was no problem at all to shift up or down without the clutch, if you
were
> attentive and gentle, could feel the right rpm, and were not on the gas
> during the shift.  Luckily it was mostly freeway driving and I encountered
> no stop-and-go traffic on the way, something not possible in San Diego
> County today.
>
> Andrew Watry
> Berlina Register
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 16:03:27 EDT
> From: GModelle@domain.elided
> Subject: 2nd gear synchros
>
> Esteemed Digesti,
> I'd like to know why the second gear synchro is so prone to early
retirement.
> If you look at the tranny internals, there is no diference between the
second
> gear assembly and any of the others, one through five. So owing to the
> collective understanding of this shifter-shortcoming, has anyone ever
> suggested a cure? Titanium synchro rings? Radical gear lightening? What is
> the present thinking?
>
> Modelle in Somers Point
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 16:07:38 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Richard Welty <rwelty@domain.elided>
> Subject: Re: no-clutch shifting an Alfa
>
> On Tue, 6 Aug 2002 15:58:30 -0400  "Watry, Andrew (LNG-MBC)"
<Andrew.Watry@domain.elided> wrote:
>
> > Once in 1978 when my "friend" exploded the clutch plate on my old Super
> > power-shifting it, I drove it home from Lakeside, CA to Carlsbad, CA, a
> > total of more than 50 miles, with no clutch whatsoever.
>
> i'm also accustomed to this from early saab 99s, which had a clutch slave
> that was exposed to the elements. they would periodically blow their
seals,
> leaving the driver to work out the easiest possible path to the parts
store
> for a rebuild kit or a replacement.
>
> it really wasn't that hard if you planned ahead and were "soft" with the
> shifter.
>
> richard
> - --
> Richard Welty
rwelty@domain.elided
> Averill Park Networking
518-573-7592
>               Unix, Linux, IP Network Engineering, Security
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 16:23:43 -0400
> From: FERDINANDO DI MATTEO <aroctech@domain.elided>
> Subject: Shifting gears up or down the Di Matteo way.
>
> Double clutching is a waste of time and effort!   To learn my way is not
> at all difficult.  Practice for 20 minutes and you will have it down pat,
>
> I will not give you any technical numbers to remember.
>
> To upshft without crunching Push the clutch ALL the way down to the
> floor.   The extr a fraction of a second allows the gears to fully stop.
>
> To down shift fast from any gear Do Not take your foot off of the
> throttle, maintain the engine speed you are using in that gear, then
> deprtess the clutch all the way and shift! You may want to down sdhift
> from 5th to 4th to 3rd to2ndin rapid succession , you'll find the engine
> rpms at perfect speed each time.
>
> That works perfectly in every Alfa I have owned, in fact I learnd that
> method in my very first Giulietta in '58
>
> regards, Fred
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 16:32:54 -0400
> From: "Weiss, Jeffrey" <jeffrey.weiss@domain.elided>
> Subject: RE: Shifting gears up or down the Di Matteo way.
>
> FERDINANDO DI MATTEO once again describes Fred Shifting:
> > Double clutching is a waste of time and effort!
> > ...
> > To down shift fast from any gear Do Not take your foot off of
> > the throttle, maintain the engine speed you are using in that
> > gear, then deprtess the clutch all the way and shift! You may
> > want to down sdhift from 5th to 4th to 3rd to2ndin rapid
> > succession , you'll find the engine rpms at perfect speed
> > each time.
>
> Well, OK, this matches speeds nicely for a smooth re-engagement
> of the engine to the drivetrain, but it does exactly nothing
> for the transmission.  This discussion has been about syncros
> and matching RPMs internally to the transmission.
> - --
>
> Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 14:49:39 -0700
> From: Will Owen <nashwill912@domain.elided>
> Subject: Doubleclutching etc.
>
> Gregory Youngblood asked, "Question, if the clutch isn't used to shift, do
the synchros
> still work to
> make the shift smooth?"
>
> Kinda the opposite. Back in the days of Yore (or Yore Granpa, haw haw),
before we had all
> this synchronizer stuff, all your really slick and with-it drivers would
routinely ignore
> the clutch whilst on the move, using it only to take off from a stop.
Everyone else (your
> non-slick, out-of-it drivers, which is to say most of them) would use the
clutch and still
> make lots of nasty graunching noises. As more and more affluent people
began driving their
> own cars, the manufacturers adopted various internal speed-matching
mechanisms for their
> gearboxes, thus delighting the unskilled drivers who could now shift
without making all
> those scary noises, and annoying hell out of the skilled pros who found
that the synchros
> stubbornly blocked their attempted "dry" shifts.
>
> The one exception to this is the constant-mesh type of box that comes on
motorcycles.
> Upshifting sans clutch needs only a momentary lifting of the throttle
while catching the
> next gear, and (on most bikes of my acquaintance) downshifting is only a
little trickier -
> mostly just a matter of practice. Only car I can think of with this kind
of box is the old
> ('56 on) Fiat Nuova 500, which had dead-easy clutchless shifting as just
one of its
> endearing tricks. And Yes, I have dry-shifted a synchro'd car: another
Fiat, my old 128,
> which would always break its clutch cable at least five miles away from
where I could
> replace it. NOT fun, nor at all easy...when the Milano blew its clutch
pivot, I just stuck
> it in 2nd and drove it home that way!
>
> Will Owen
> '87 Milano Gold
> '72 Berlina Bondo
> '71 Citroen DS21
> Pasadena, CA
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