Subject: Re: 1750 vs. 2000

["Albert Jacob" <ajacob@domain.elided>]

Bob/Norm,

I appreciate your thoughtful remarks, regarding this topic.   It is one of
my favorites, partly because so much has been writen about it.  I currently
own a 71 GTV 1750 but have owned a 74 GTV, 77 and 82 Spider (all US Spec) in
the past.  I also am far from an expert but have done some laymens research
and have spent many years and miles behind both of these engines and have
some opinions (of course).  First, I think we could argue about which engine
is more powerful in different states of tune for some time.  You ellude to
this before.  Cam and ignition timing are just two variables that make a
given engine more (or less) powerful.  One thing seems clear: all else being
equal, the 2 liter is, by definition, more powerful.  (I'm using the term
VERY loosely to mean horsepower and torque to make my rather simple point.)
My logic is thus: the engines are similar enough such that any mod that can
be carried out on one can also be performed on the other and the other will
benifit from the same mod in more or less equal measure and will almost
certainly benifit (or suffer) in the same "direction" from a given mod.
This has the effect of isolating output potential to the only variable which
can not for the purpose of this discussion be made equal: displacement.

The other major piece of the issue is infinitely more illusive.  The "sweet"
nature or feel of the 1750 has been mention in so many diferent books and
pulications on the subject that it has almost become cleche and certainly
seems to fall in the relm of what most Alfa folk think of as common
knowledge.  Most also correspondingly mention the 2 liter's unwillingness to
rev as a counterpoint to the 1750's willing nature.  I can refer you to some
of these passages if you desire; mostly books on Alfa and various English
car mags that I've socked away over the last 15 years. I'm assuming that
most of these comments come from cars that were basically stock, in whatever
country they were sold.

A very respected engineer and Alfa mechanic friend told me years ago that
there is no physical or theoretical reason for this to be true since the
stroke of the motors is the same.  I've never truly bought this argument
though.  How about the different inertial mass of the pistons or flywheel
weight???  He said the perceived differences were down to the aforementioned
cam and cam and ignition timing.  I just don't know but I'd sure like to
hear what others may think.  I know one thing, a really tricked out 2 liter
revs from 4K to 7K so fast you don't have TIME to notice its vibrating like
hell in the process.

As for me, I haven't owned a 2 liter in almost 10 years, so I guess my
ballot has been cast.

additional food for thought,
Albert


Norm wrote: "An interesting reply to the earlier post that stated "a 1750
may
better a 2000 in street form but with a couple of tweaks the 2000 will
outperform the 1750." What about a few tweaks on the 1750? Having owned both
I can tell you that the 1750 is the best configuration for the Alfa four
cylinder on the street, due to the size and structure of the engine itself.
Especially the 71, tuned and running right. You will get much more useful Hp
and torque with the 1750. Just an actual observation."

Bob replies: I think I may have made the original statement.  If so, here's
what I had in mind.  One of the reasons I targetted early 70's gtvs was that
they were essentially de-tuned for US emissions regs.  The minor tweaks I
was
referring to were: 1. retime the ignition, and 2. retime the cams.  I've
found that doing this time and again transforms the 2000.  Perhaps the 1750
could benefit as well.... a quick scan of the cam timing specs however does
not suggest that as the 1750 is already at 102/102 instead of the 114/102
timing on the 2000.  As far as ignition timing is concerned, the US 1750 is
retarded compared with the Euro version (can't wait until someone clips that
phrase and uses it out of context!), but the 2000 is even further retarded.

Once again, though, I fully admit I have no experience with 1750s, so my
impressions could be (and probabaly are) worthless.  Does anyone have
contemporary road tests of 1750s and 2000s to compare?  I have some at home,
but they're not with me now.

bob brady, dvaroc
74 gtv
88 verde

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