Re: Car of the century

[Matthew Killick <m.killick@per.dem.csiro.au>]

Scott Fisher says in reply to me:

>> Errr.  Fiat 127, introduced around 1969. 

>I stand corrected, up to this point.  Beyond that, however...

>> I disagree.  Fiat invented and proved it.

>So please explain this new dating system, in which 1969 precedes 1959,
>the year of the introduction of the Issigonis Mini.  Or is this part of
>the famous trans-equatorial coriolis effect, that causes calendars as
>well as drains to run backwards? :-)  

I'm not claiming that Fiat invented fwd.  I have owned 11 Minis over the
years, including a rare and desirable "lightweight" 1959 model.  As far as
I know, Miller ran an fwd car at Indianapolis in about 1912.  FWIW, in
1876, my grandfather rode an fwd bicycle from London to Boston
(Lincolnshire) in one day.  I am also aware that Citroen, Cord, Renault,
BMC (or whatever they were called that week) and plenty of other companies
built fwd cars before 1969.  

No-one (to my uncertain knowledge) puts the gearbox in front of the engine
any more.  The Mini soldiers on as the only gearbox-in-sump car, still
hamstrung by a screaming straight cut drop gear.  In-line fwd remains a
rarity, and is mainly confined to larger and specialist cars where the
packaging inefficiencies aren't problematic.  Which leaves us with 4
cylinder OHC transverse fwd plus an end-on gearbox as the World's standard
practice.  Which takes us back to the Fiat 127/128.

Scott and others are welcome to disagree, but I'm pleased to see some
support for my opinion that the Fiat *proved* the layout.  (This in
response to Scotts assertion:

"the Civic, if not invented, then certainly proved in the automotive
world").  

I had thought that Fiat were first to put the gearbox end-on, hence my
assertion that Fiat invented the layout (not fwd).  I hadn't been aware
that the early Saabs were tranverse engined.  The earliest Saab (a
2-stroke) I have seen was (I think) in-line.  I thought Simca were gearbox
in sump.  If someone can confirm that these cars had the definitive layout
before Fiat, then I'll gladly withdraw my assertion, but I'd argue that a 2
cylinder 2-stroke isn't definitive.  I'll also stick with the claim that
Fiat proved it.  My 1970 128 was and is a truly "modern" car in a way that
a Mini never can be.

Cheers
Mat