Reducing diet

[JHertzman@xxxxxxx]

In AD7-238 Bob Brady, seeking information toward reducing the weight of a GT
Veloce, asks: 

"Perhaps John Hertzman can answer this one:
Anyone know the curb weights of the following cars?

'67 Alfa Romeo Spider 1600 (US vs. Europe?)
'67 Alfa Romeo Giulia Sprint Veloce 1600 (ditto)
'67 Alfa Romeo GTA 1600
'67 Alfa Romeo Giulia 1600 (ditto)

'71 "      " Spider " 1750
'71 "      "  GTV   " 1750

'72 "      " Spider " 2000
'72 "      " GTV    " 2000

'74 "      " Spider " 2000
'74 "      " GTV    " 2000

I have numbers from Fusi and from d'Amico-Tabucchi. They would both be working
from the same factory figures, with the possibility also that sometimes d'A-T
is using Fusi's numbers. Where they disagree, either could be wrong; where
they agree, the factory data they are copying could be wrong.

On the '67, where Bob asks US vs. Europe, I know of no reason why any of the
'67s should differ between Europe and USA. Going by the parts books there was
no "USA version" until the Spica came on the scene. The 1750 and later cars
all have a USA supplement to the parts books, the 1600s do not.

Fusi gives single weight, either dry or wet (peso a seco, peso in ordine di
marcia) for a range of years. Where it is possible to compare apples with
apples there seems to be a flat 50 kg difference, but this is not infallible..
(Fusi also occasionally varies the terms, e.g. " peso in ordine di marcia - -
con attrzzi e martinetto", "weight in running order with tools and windlass",
presumably jack). Both sources give a dry weight for the 2000 and a wet weight
for the 1750, with a 50 kg difference. I would have expected the 2000 to weigh
slightly more, but not more than a few pounds.

D'Amico-Tabucchi gives a range of weights for a range of years, which, with
Fusi and the known changes, can give a basis for approximating relative
weights. Incremental weight growths would, I think, have come with the Spica
system, with door intrusion beams and seat belts, with 5 mph bumpers, and with
the Bosch system in the case of Spiders. The biggest range in d'Amico-Tabucchi
is for the 2000 Spider, which gives dry weights of 990, 1040,1070, 1157 kg,
probably the 990 for the '72, 1040 for the heavy bumper, 1070 for the first
Bosch cars, 1157 for the last ones.

Neither Fusi nor d'Amico-Tabucchi gives anything relevant to air conditioning
for those cars in which it was optional. Where it is standard it should be
included. So? I will give what the books say, throwing in a few additions
which might represent the minimum for a particular body.

'62-'67 Giulia T.I.: 1000 kg dry (Fusi, d'A-T agrees)
'63-'64 Giulia T.I. Super: 910 kg dry (homologation special, gutted, alloy
wheels,              probably no undercoating etc (Fusi, d'A-T agrees)
'64-'71 Giulia 1300 Berlina: 980 kg dry (Fusi, d'A-T agrees)
'65-'72 Giulia Super: 990 kg dry (Fusi, d'A-T 990 succesivamente 1040 to '76)
'66-'72 Giulia 1300 TI: 1010 kg wet w/ tools and jack (martinetto, = windlass)
(d'A-T says 1010 dry, one is probably in error
'69-'70 Giulia 1600 S: 1000 kg dry (Fusi, d'A-T wet: contadiction.)
'70-'73 Giulia 1300 Super: 1010 wet (Fusi, d'A-T agrees)

'63-'66 Giulia Sprint GT: 950 kg dry (Fusi, d'A-T agrees)
'65-'69 GTA: 745 kg dry (Fusi, d'A-T agrees)
'65-'68 GTA Corsa: 700 kg dry  (Fusi only)
'66-'68 Giulia Sprint GT Veloce: 1020 kg dry (Fusi, d'A-T agrees)
'66-'72 GT 1300 Junior: 930 kg wet (Fusi, d'A-T agrees)
'68-'72 GTA 1300 Junior:  760 kg wet (Fusi, d'A-T agrees)
'67-'72 1750 GT Veloce: 1040 kg wet (Fusi, d'A-T agrees)
'70-'77 2000 GT Veloce: 990 kg dry (Fusi, d'A-T agrees)

'66-'67 Spider 1600: 990 kg wet (Fusi; d'A-T 990 dry: contradiction.)
'72-'92 Spider 1600: 1020kg dry (d'A-T)
'67-'71 1750 Spider Veloce: 1040 kg wet (Fusi, d'A-T agrees)
'68-'72 Spider 1300 Junior: 990 kg wet (Fusi, d'A-T agrees)
'70-'77 2000 Spider Veloce: 990 kg dry (Fusi, d'A-T gives 990, 1040,1070,
1157)

Bob says "I'm trying to understand where the weight is on my GTV and how best
to put it on a diet.  I'm under the impression that the US spec "gtv" gained
about 
400lbs between 1967 and 1974.  Is this true?" The factory numbers say not;
1020 kg dry for the '67 1600, 990 kg dry for the 2000. Do you believe it?

I would guess that the '72+ cast grill weighed a bit more, the 165-14 wheels
and tires a bit more than the 155-15s, the bumper guards a hair more, the big
tail lights ounces more than the little ones, the dashes progressively
heavier, the Spica more than the Webers, the electric pump more than the
mechanical, the seats more, the console a bit. The air conditioned cars added
a good bit, the American Standard Accessory lower firegrate a few pounds. I
cannot see 400 pounds, near 20%; that is more than the difference between a
steel-bodied 1300 Junior and an alloy-paneled 1300 GTA. The weight difference
between a 1750/2000 GTV and a 1600 Junior Zagato, with alloy doors, hood, and
deck, a 4" shorter wheelbase, no rear seat, no rear bulkhead or package tray,
and Zagato weight-consciousness generally, is just 90 kg, a hair under 200#

The Juniors generally save a pound here and there by deleting consoles, bumper
guards, the second set of headlights. Stock or near-stock sizes of wheels and
tires would save both weight and unsprung weight over the ultimate-cornering-
power stuff. If the desired handling can be had with thinner (or fewer) roll
bars (and fewer added chassis reinforcements), fine. Sump guard, radios, extra
speakers, air- but there are limits.

Enjoy the game-

John H.

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End of alfa-digest V7 #240
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