Re: alfa-digest V6 #290

[Carl Prochilo <Carl_Prochilo@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

I'm not going to get in the middle of this debate, but all this talk about the 127 a
128 really makes me reminisce about my childhood.  I had the good fortune to live in
Italy between the age of 12 and 15, and before that I was able to spend long summers
there and got to see these cars a lot.  In addition, my father had rented a Fiat 130
(how many people remember this car?), and owned a 132 and an Alfetta (my favorite by a
landslide, and Alfa content for the digest).  As I look back, Fiat proved that a good
concept was not taken to its ultimate potential thru lack understanding external
markets, and the relatively closed Italian car market is probably somewhat to blame.
Yugo of course proved that the 127 really wasn't really worthy of surviving in NA's
temperate climate (at least up here in the NE) because they never enhanced the car's
infrastructure to last more than a couple of years.  And lets not forget the 131
Mifafiori...  Well, okay, let's forget it.

Cheers,
Carl Prochilo

ps.  To those using this digest, please do not send anything to this list unless it is
in plain text.  It is very inconvenient to sift through HTML junk, not to mention all
the wasted bandwidth.


> Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:39:04 +0800
> From: Matthew Killick
> Subject: Re: Car of the century
>
> Scott Fisher says in reply to me:
>
> >> Errr.  Fiat 127, introduced around 1969.
>
> >I stand corrected, up to this point.  Beyond that, however...
>
> >> I disagree.  Fiat invented and proved it.
>
> >So please explain this new dating system, in which 1969 precedes 1959,
> >the year of the introduction of the Issigonis Mini.  Or is this part of
> >the famous trans-equatorial coriolis effect, that causes calendars as
> >well as drains to run backwards? :-)
>
> I'm not claiming that Fiat invented fwd.  I have owned 11 Minis over the
> years, including a rare and desirable "lightweight" 1959 model.  As far as
> I know, Miller ran an fwd car at Indianapolis in about 1912.  FWIW, in
> 1876, my grandfather rode an fwd bicycle from London to Boston
> (Lincolnshire) in one day.  I am also aware that Citroen, Cord, Renault,
> BMC (or whatever they were called that week) and plenty of other companies
> built fwd cars before 1969.
>
> No-one (to my uncertain knowledge) puts the gearbox in front of the engine
> any more.  The Mini soldiers on as the only gearbox-in-sump car, still
> hamstrung by a screaming straight cut drop gear.  In-line fwd remains a
> rarity, and is mainly confined to larger and specialist cars where the
> packaging inefficiencies aren't problematic.  Which leaves us with 4
> cylinder OHC transverse fwd plus an end-on gearbox as the World's standard
> practice.  Which takes us back to the Fiat 127/128.
>
> Scott and others are welcome to disagree, but I'm pleased to see some
> support for my opinion that the Fiat *proved* the layout.  (This in
> response to Scotts assertion:
>
> "the Civic, if not invented, then certainly proved in the automotive
> world").
>
> I had thought that Fiat were first to put the gearbox end-on, hence my
> assertion that Fiat invented the layout (not fwd).  I hadn't been aware
> that the early Saabs were tranverse engined.  The earliest Saab (a
> 2-stroke) I have seen was (I think) in-line.  I thought Simca were gearbox
> in sump.  If someone can confirm that these cars had the definitive layout
> before Fiat, then I'll gladly withdraw my assertion, but I'd argue that a 2
> cylinder 2-stroke isn't definitive.  I'll also stick with the claim that
> Fiat proved it.  My 1970 128 was and is a truly "modern" car in a way that
> a Mini never can be.
>
> Cheers
> Mat
>

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