Re: Slightly off topic H2 (very little Alfa content)

[George Graves <gmgraves@domain.elided>]

You have let the enviro-whako's dirty little secret out of the bag, 
here. Almost none of the alternative-to-gasoline fuels are in any way 
practical. As you say, hydrogen requires more energy to make than it 
stores. Enough alcohol to replace gasoline would require that every 
acre of arable land on the planet be given over to the growth of corn, 
sugar beets or sugar cane from which to make the fuel-grade alcohol. 
Batteries, of course, just shift the point of pollution to a central 
location- the power plant, and that infrastructure would have to be 
enlarged a thousandfold if everyone were to buy an electric car. Since 
we Americans let our enviro-alarmists kill-off nuclear power in this 
country, the idea of thousands more coal and oil fired power plants 
built solely to recharge people's automobiles overnight, is just too 
terrible to contemplate.  Fuel cells have the same problems as burning 
hydrogen, because its essentially reverse electrolysis. And again, fuel 
cells produce far less energy than it takes to make the hydrogen that 
they require (the oxygen required, ostensibly, could come from the 
air). The best alternative technology at the moment is the 
hybrid-electric/diesel car. These work like the current Toyota Prius or 
the little Honda two-seater (the one with the fender skirts in the 
rear), except they would use diesel engines instead of gasoline.  So it 
looks like we will be able to run our gasoline-powered Alfas for many 
years to come, because there ain't no practical alternative to gasoline 
anywhere on the horizon.

George Graves
'86 GTV-6

On Wednesday, Feb 5, 2003, at 05:52 US/Pacific, alfa-digest wrote:


> Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 19:59:02 -0500
> From: Eric Storhok <alfa@domain.elided>
> Subject: Slightly off topic H2
>
> Uh, before you get excited about hydrogen power, ask where it will come
> from in volumes sufficient to power the world.
>
> Water?  Takes more energy to split it than you get out of it, and 
> where is
> the energy to split it?
> Various forms of alternate electricity (hydro, thermal, air....)- not
> enough supply to generate the H2 requirements of the world.
>
> Right now, the best source is natural gas, but that generates CO2, 
> which
> puts us right back were we started.
>
> Does anyone know if you can patent ideas?....
>
> One better idea is a gasoline powered fuel cell- as soon as you get to 
> 25%
> average efficiency, you are better than an IC engine (on an average
> drive).  Theoretically possible, heck yes!
>
> Personally, I still don't see a realistic threat to the gasoline 
> powered IC
> engine.  Gas has the highest specific energy, its easy to make, we have
> control of its serious pollution problems.   Most importantly, for an 
> equal
> of a 100hp 4 cyl cheap motor, it costs somewhere between 20-50 TIMES as
> much.  Wanna spend $50k on an Escort.
>
> Eric Storhok
> Ann Arbor, MI
>
>
> AROC Detroit Homepage:  http://www-personal.umich.edu/~alfa/index.htm
George Graves
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