RE; GTV front AND rear glass removal

["John Hertzman" <johnhertzman@domain.elided>]

The recent discussion of windshield removal and replacement started in
AD9-0178 with a question about the need to remove the REAR window for
headliner replacement. John Doak had written, about the rear window removal,
"I hate to have to do that unless absolutely necessary because of the chances
of cracking the glass or dinging the trim." Several of the following posts
commented on techniques, including pros and cons of gasket cutting, on rear
windows only, several others on both rear windows and windshields.

In AD9-0179 Dion Fields wrote:

"i have heard that the right way to remove the gasketed glass, such as the
windshield or rear window, is to treat the gasket as disposable.  use a sharp
knife, and cut through the rubber along the edge of the aluminum trim on the
outside.  the glass will then pull right out of the rubber, followed by the
trim, and finally the rubber off the frame.  of course, when i took my car
apart i gently pried the rear window, gasket, trim and all, gently out from
the inside with a number of screwdrivers.  i was EXTREMELY scared of breaking
the glass, but it worked."

In AD9-0180 Steve Schaeffer replied:

"Gack! Don't cut that beautiful gasket!  Why do such a thing?  The front and
rear glass can come out just fine without trashing such a rare and expensive
gasket.

"I can't remember exactly how I did mine, but I also did not have to remove
the thin strip in the middle of the gasket.

"Check out the digest archives, I'm sure you'll find how to remove the glass
from the early non-glued-windshield era GTV."

Equally in AD9-0180 Brian Shorey replied:

"The glass, trim, and gasket can be removed together.  Sure.  Just a little
bit of risk of breaking the glass, after doing many of them my success rate is
probably around 50%.

"I think I paid $30 for the readily available gasket, that was a few years
ago.  Compare that with hundreds of dollars for the glass (if you can find
it), and the trim, which is made of unobtanium.

"Personally, I'd sacrifice the gasket."

(The current prices (Centerline) are windshield, $350, gasket, $78.55.)

Then in AD9-0181 Dana Loomis agreed with Steve, writing:

"I agree!  I'd never cut up a perfectly good gasket if I could avoid it. It's
not that new gaskets are expensive or hard to find, but if you remove the
glass from the car by cutting the gasket, then you have to take off the
aluminum trim, put the new gasket on the glass, and put the trim back on the
gasket.  This is not only time-consuming, but it's very likely you'll bend the
trim.  And new trim pieces _are_ hard to find!

"There are good descriptions of how to remove the glass in the Digest
archives.  Basically, you take the gasket, glass and trim out in one piece by
carefully working the gasket over the window lip from indside, using a plastic
spatula."

Also in AD9-0180 Lawrence Gowin described his successful rear window removal,
by a variant of the standard Digest Archive methods, with a last note that "It
may be important to note that this gasket is only a few years old and still
very pliable. This may be more difficult on an older gasket." I strongly
agree, newish Italian rubber probably does differ from thirty-year-old Italian
rubber (e.g., tires -) as do old and new Italian synthetics (e.g., dashboards
- ).

I would also note that Lawrence Gowin, Dion Fields, and the questioner who
started this thread were all talking about rear windows, not windshields. I
believe all the GTV rear windows regardless of market are tempered, (sometimes
called 'toughened') as are the side windows and quarter windows, while (in the
USA) all the windshields are laminated. (This is why there are just four
different rear GTV windows- clear, clear heated, green athermic and heated
green athermic) while there are six different gasketed windshields- LHD, RHD,
green athermic LHD, green athermic RHD, Sweden only, and USA only). Tempered
(or toughened) glass can usually take some pretty brutal treatment, and can
shatter into small, blunt-edged particles (by a BB, stone, or gunshot) or more
rarely be crazed into an opaque craquelure (which is why the Euro LHD and RHD
windshields are different from each other, with a small area in front of the
driver which is less likely to go fully opaque, due to a different degree of
tempering) but can't crack in the usual sense, while laminated glass is a very
different product, very vulnerable to cracking under inadvertent uneven local
pressure.

The first time I saw the "removal without cutting the gasket" technique
demonstrated on an Alfa windshield it was by an experienced and meticulous
restorer (a class-winner at Pebble Beach) and oops the glass broke. (He should
have known better; he had previously lost a Sprint Speciale windshield,
because SS gaskets are hard to find - but not as hard as SS glass.) The one
time I tried it myself, without cutting the gasket, the glass broke. Most
recently I lost both a GTV windshield AND a perfect trim set in an
unsuccessful removal attempt at a highly reputable Alfa specialist shop; I
thought they knew enough to cut the gasket, but the proprietor delegated the
job to a mechanic (undoubtedly a great mechanic, but apparently not a great
glassman) who felt that cutting the gasket would risk damaging the trim. So,
the glass broke. Then he tried removing the trim, with the cracked glass still
in place, and trashed the trim as thoroughly as he had the glass. I gritted my
teeth when I heard about the glass, but I cried (literally) when I saw what
was left of the trim.

Obviously, some people (like Steve Schaeffer) can, and do, have great success
in saving the gasket while pulling the windshield and trim; some, like Dion
Fields, who "was EXTREMELY scared of breaking the glass" may worry more than
they need to about a rear window; some, like Brian Shorey, have some successes
and enough failures with windshields to treat any gasketed glass with caution.
And perhaps some people are just lucky, and certainly some people just
klutzes. I'm enough of a klutz, and/or unlucky, to want to not push my luck.
YMMV. Until windshields are cheap, the trim readily available, and gaskets
unobtainable, I will cut the gaskets. Saving them makes no more sense to me
than reusing head gaskets.

Oh- one last thought. The Digest Archives? Dion Fields wrote "use a sharp
knife, and cut through the rubber along the edge of the aluminum trim on the
outside." The factory shop manual, which was probably written with new cars
and their pliable gaskets in mind, says "To make the windscreen removal
easier, cut the inner lip of weatherstrip with scissors." Not the outside, the
inside. Somewhat similar, but very different. There is lots of good stuff in
the archives. Lots of hogwash too. Some bravery, some caution. The factory
shop manuals are usually, though not always, trustworthy, if the reader allows
for their limitations - like the passage of time. Your choices.

John H.
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