Re: [alfa] Re: Air conditioning question (No Alfa content)

["Gwynne W. Spencer" <gwynnes1@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

Please tell us just what refrigerant you are using so that we might also 
enjoy the benefits you described.

Gwynne Spencer

At 03:09 AM 8/4/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>I've done the research.
>
>The refrigerants I advocate may be illegal in
>Arkansas, Arizona, Connecticut, Florida, Idaho,
>Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Maryland, North
>Dakota, Oklahoma, Texas, Utah, Virginia,
>Washington, Wisconsin, and the District of
>Columbia, but no one's going to pull you over and
>sample your refrigerant.  Post-1972 headlight
>lens designs are also outlawed in several states,
>but that doesn't stop me from using them, because
>I'd rather get cited than die in an accident that
>could have been avoided.
>
>The fire risk is (like USA headlight laws) mostly
>BS.  If you test pure refrigerants in a lab,
>you'll discover that R-134a has an autoignition
>temperature of 1411F, which is lower than the
>1585F at which the equivalent hydrocarbon
>refrigerant ignites.  On the other hand,
>hydrocarbon refrigerants will ignite more readily
>in the presence of an open flame than will
>R-134a.  But both of those facts are really
>beside the point.  In your car's air conditioning
>system the refrigerant is mixed with flammable
>oil, and that's where the fire risk comes
>from--it's independent of your refrigerant
>choice.  But don't take my [theoretical] word for
>it.  See Colbourne, D., 1997, "Calor Gas Internal
>Appliance Fire Test Report."  To make a long
>story short, he applied heat to two refrigerators
>using the two afformentioned refrigerants and
>concluded that in both cases "an intense fireball
>was produced
>Regardless of the type of
>refrigerant used, flame jets tended to die out
>rapidly and minor flames that remained were
>evidently burning residual compressor oil."  Keep
>in mind that his control subject was a
>refrigerator using the technically non-flammable
>R-12, and still, "an intense fireball was
>produced."  Given the explosive potential of all
>air conditioning oils, it's no surprise that the
>same guy (with T. J. Ritter) concluded in a 1998
>paper that "The conclusions...are that the use of
>hydrocarbon refrigerants does not significantly
>increase the potential for fires or fatalities."
>
>The only logical reason to choose R-134a is if
>you rely on professionals to service your air
>conditioning--it's true that most shops won't
>mess with anything besides the traditional R-12
>and R-134a.
>
>R-12 may last longer and work better than R-134a,
>but hydrocarbon refrigerants aren't any more
>likely to sneak through your hoses and seals than
>is R-12.  And they will cool your car just as
>effectively as R-12, while consuming less energy.
>(Last summer when I had a thermocouple in the
>car, I saw 4 degrees Celsius at the vents in my
>'82 GTV-6, on an 85 degree Fahrenheit day--the
>only modification besides the refrigerant was a
>Milano compressor.)  For my money, the real
>beauty of hydrocarbon refrigerants is that
>they're indifferent to the oil you use in your
>compressor, are compatible with all compressors,
>hoses, and seals, and can even be mixed (albeit
>not legally) with traditional
>refrigerants--legalities aside, you don't
>actually have to *convert* anything to use a
>hydrocarbon refrigerant, so you can switch back
>any time you want.
>
>Just my two cents,
>Joe Elliott
>
>
>At 6:17 PM +0000 8/3/04, alfa-digest wrote:
>>Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 13:20:24 EDT
>>From: AlfaRs@domain.elided
>>Subject: [alfa] re: Air conditioning question (No Alfa content)
>>
>>Before anyone decides to use one of the HC refrigerants I suggest they
>>do a little research.  They are actually outlawed in several states.  The
>>problem is that they are pretty flammable.  You have to remember that we
>>are talking about a flammable gas under pressure (up to 300 psi on a normal
>>system).  The big concern is that in an accident you have an evaporator in
>>the passenger compartment carrying this flammable gas!  I'm not saying that
>>this stuff doesn't work, or that it isn't much better on the environment, or
>>even
>>that I wouldn't use it myself but you need to do some research prior to use.
>>You will also find that most AC shops will not work on your system if this
>>stuff is installed.  The two links below are very good for general AC
>>information.
>>Both are supported by professionals.  You will see that they both recommend
>>134a over any of the blends or HCs.  There is no miracle in a can when it
>>comes
>>to AC.  As for the original question about the Jeep pay a few extra bucks
>and
>>stay with the R12.  Trust me it will work better, last longer, and you can
>>always
>>convert at a later date
>>
>>http://www.ackits.com/forum/index.cfm?NoCookies=Yes&forumid=1
>>http://www.aircondition.com/
>>
>>Dave McCrory
>>Maryville, TN
>>93' 164 (freeze 12)
>>87' Verde (R12)
>>87' Platnium (R12)
>>87' Gold (empty)
>>76' Spider (2x70)
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